tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189646929857564069.post3984561881815620095..comments2024-01-04T08:47:03.386-08:00Comments on Rosemary's Medical Blog: Naturopathic Doctors, NDs or Naturally Deluded?Rosemary Jacobshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11055022629218608136noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189646929857564069.post-39183644792819704422012-10-13T14:08:06.457-07:002012-10-13T14:08:06.457-07:00Elaine, I do not know how anyone who believes in e...Elaine, I do not know how anyone who believes in evidence-based medicine can go to a "medical school" which teaches people to routinely use homeopathy and untested supplements which aren't even standardized for purity and potency or think that a profession that teaches those modalities as therapeutics to be routinely used could be considered a profession that practiced EBM.<br /><br />I also think that a profession which includes silver, for IV use no less in violation of federal law, in its state sanctioned formulary can claim to practice, understand or value EBM. The inclusion of silver by 241 licensed NDs including their state reps shows me that the profession, not individuals, but the profession, knows nothing about the basics of pharmacology or toxicology or even how to find evidence by searching PubMed like an informed consumer would. <br /><br />Even worse than that though as far as I am concerned is the manner in which the VT NDs have ignored me and my friend Arline when we told them of our concerns about silver in their formulary. That to me indicates that they practice a belief-based system of medicine, not an evidence-based one and that the profession itself is dangerous indeed because it doesn't recognize that.<br /><br />Thanks for your comments.Rosemary Jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11055022629218608136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189646929857564069.post-22897618125047238052012-10-13T11:28:27.155-07:002012-10-13T11:28:27.155-07:00I found your story very interesting (http://rosema...I found your story very interesting (http://rosemaryjacobs.com/rose3.html), so thank you for sharing it.<br /><br />You're absolutely right about evidence-based medicine. The only part where I have a differing opinion is that I think that not all NDs are necessarily non-EBM based. It would depend on the practitioner, no matter what degree they obtain. I myself am entering medical school (I've applied to both conventional and naturopathic schools) and believe in using what has been found to work, whether it's been *classed* as mainstream or alternative medicine. Whether I end up as an MD or an ND, I would never give a patient any therapy if I was personally unsure about the risks and benefits. After all, the first and most important thing you learn when becoming a doctor is "firstly, do no harm".<br /><br />I'm just trying to say that not all NDs are "wrong" or "bad". It depends on the person. I do understand your point of view though.<br /><br />Thank you for the thought-provoking discussion. Take care.Elainenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189646929857564069.post-43849679769361884812012-10-11T11:51:58.034-07:002012-10-11T11:51:58.034-07:00I realize that lack of evidence doesn’t demonstrat...I realize that lack of evidence doesn’t demonstrate that something doesn’t work, but without a large body of objective evidence that consistently gives the same results, there is no way to know that something does work and until a substance is adequately studied there is no way to know the risks involved in using it. Without knowing the risks and benefits of a drug or remedy, one can’t make an informed decision about it. This is a concept accepted and taught in med school but not in naturopathic school. If it were, NDs would not routinely use untested drugs and therapies. <br />Also, there is a ton of evidence showing that taking silver internally doesn’t provide any benefits whatsoever and a ton of evidence showing that it can cause argyria, gray skin. (Please check my links or ask me for them if they are inactive.) Yet in spite of this NDs use, promote and sell silver.<br />Those who believe in and practice EBM often use things when there is good evidence that they work even though they don’t know the mechanism of action by which they work, but before they use them routinely, they study them to determine that they work and that they are safe. They also study them to determent the correct and toxic doses. <br />NDs on the other hand routinely use substances before doing any such studies. As I’ve repeated so many times, that terrifies me. I fear there could be something used routinely by many that is totally useless as lethal as cigarettes but that by the time it is discovered it will be too late to save many from premature deaths. Here is a very good example: http://rosemary-jacobs.blogspot.com/2012/05/deadly-folk-medicine.htmlRosemary Jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11055022629218608136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189646929857564069.post-3373880879509687532012-10-11T11:29:55.725-07:002012-10-11T11:29:55.725-07:00Elaine, thank you for talking to me. I believe in ...Elaine, thank you for talking to me. I believe in communication and appreciate it very much. I am not an ND. Neither am I an MD or a scientist of any kind. I am a 70 yr. old woman, a retired Montessori teacher, who was disfigured by a silver drug prescribed by a naive, incompetent but truly caring MD over 50 years ago. My story is here:<br />http://rosemaryjacobs.com/rose3.html <br /><br />My doctor was one of the very last MDs to use silver internally. The others read their medical journals and knew better. They saw the articles warning about the fraudulent ads for silver from drug companies in an era when drug companies were as free to do whatever they wanted as the supplement companies of today are. This taught me a powerful lesson. If it is important and I’m not comatose, I look at the evidence. <br /><br />In 2010 I learned that licensed NDs with degrees from “4-year accredited naturopathic schools” in my state, Vermont, have a state sanctioned formulary that includes silver even for IV use which is a violation of federal drug law. My efforts to warn the NDs were ignored. Most of my blog covers that. But look at the summary here:<br />http://rosemaryjacobs.com/naturopaths.html<br />Be sure to scroll to the bottom to see my friend Arline who came to the conference with me and whom the NDs also ignored. <br /><br />No matter what NDs or MDs claim a profession that uses dangerous snake oil that offers no benefits whatsoever when consumed and ignores those who present them the evidence of that is not practicing evidence-based medicine. They are practicing belief-based medicine. <br /><br />NDs, unlike MDs who don't consider themselves alts, routinely use products that have never been evaluated scientifically. That is the exact opposite of practicing EBM and extremely dangerous. It terrifies me.Rosemary Jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11055022629218608136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189646929857564069.post-56348480714902518372012-10-10T18:21:58.314-07:002012-10-10T18:21:58.314-07:00Thank you for your replies! I laud you for your su...Thank you for your replies! I laud you for your support of evidence-based medicine, and for fighting for what you believe in.<br /><br />To your first reply, I think that naturopathic schools may have evolved a bit from when you took the courses (if you did). The NDs and MDs that I know have discussed between themselves before and they concluded that the two programs share very similar course content and approaches to science, at least for the first two years of study.<br /><br />As for your second reply, I have this to say. Lack of evidence that something does work, isn't evidence that something doesn't work. True, it's not yet known how a lot of naturopathic remedies and therapies work (or don't work), but it's also not yet known how many conventional drugs and therepies work. Again, it really comes back to the risks vs benefits. And in the end, I think that it's partly - if not wholly - up to the patient/consumer to decide on the best treatment for them.Elainenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189646929857564069.post-11987318916782554282012-10-10T13:08:01.856-07:002012-10-10T13:08:01.856-07:00Elaine, the NDs of today, the ones with degrees fr...Elaine, the NDs of today, the ones with degrees from "accredited 4-year naturopathic schools" insist that the remedies and therapies that they routinely use are supported by objective evidence of safety and efficacy even when presented with overwhelming evidence (silver is one example) that that isn't true. That is why I think they are deluded. <br /><br />As far as I know my MD didn't continue to insist that claims were true when faced with evidence that they were not. He simply believed drug manufacturer's claims without independently verifying them in an era when drug companies were as unregulated as the supplement companies of today. He was naive and negligent but not deluded. Rosemary Jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11055022629218608136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189646929857564069.post-59763585759872288152012-10-10T06:14:35.706-07:002012-10-10T06:14:35.706-07:00I do not defend "traditional medicine". ...I do not defend "traditional medicine". I believe in evidence-based medicine or scientific medicine. That is not something that every MD practices but it is what has traditionally been taught in medical schools and never taught in naturopathic schools. <br /><br />The medical sciences taught in medical schools like pharmacology, toxicology, oncology, immunology, etc. are scientific disciplines with conclusions based on objective evidence. NDs take courses with similar titles, but if the content is actually the same, and I doubt that it is, they are never taught and never figure out for themselves that the main point of these sciences is that they are all supported by large bodies of high quality studies which consistently give the same results, something which is not the case with most of the remedies and therapies used in naturopathic medicine.<br /><br />I know this is all complicated. I am working on blogs now to try to explain these concepts. I hope you follow them. I appreciate your feedback. Thanks.<br />Rosemary Jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11055022629218608136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189646929857564069.post-25373896898789469652012-10-09T18:00:32.466-07:002012-10-09T18:00:32.466-07:00"Very few people who would have such a seriou..."Very few people who would have such a serious allergic reaction to echinacea, but how many would want to risk dying over a cold?" It's true that some people may have allergies to echinacea, but some people may have allergies to "traditional" cold medicine too. You're right though - it's all about benefits vs. risks.<br /><br />Also, I thought it was interesting that you were "permanently disfigured by an ignorant, though not deluded, MD", and yet you defend traditional medicine so staunchly while attacking naturopathic medicine so passionately. I would be interested in hearing your reasoning.<br /><br />Thank you for your time.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />Someone who supports both traditional and naturopathic medicineElainenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189646929857564069.post-29455590638287433852012-09-16T05:28:06.574-07:002012-09-16T05:28:06.574-07:00Anonymous, perhaps then you have an inkling of the...Anonymous, perhaps then you have an inkling of the displeasure, lack of enjoyment, I get from knowing that a profession that totally lacks the knowledge and training to practice medicine is being given the legal right to do so and to call themselves doctors. Maybe someday you will get an inkling of the terror that awakens in me. <br /> Rosemary Jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11055022629218608136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9189646929857564069.post-47376542223878340882012-09-15T22:50:40.884-07:002012-09-15T22:50:40.884-07:00I did not enjoy thisI did not enjoy thisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com